God Versus Science
Words can clarify, prove, confuse, destroy, be helpful, wound etc. etc.. In our search for God, and our understanding of faith, words can be all these and more. I received this dialogue from a parishioner the other day, and I think it explains what I mean. Ultimately, as human beings we are finite, and when it come to God, we need to walk humbly and in awe. Enjoy!
‘Let me explain the problem science has with religion.’ The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
‘You’re a Christian, aren’t you, son?’
‘Yes sir,’ the student says.
‘So you believe in God?’
‘Absolutely.’
‘Is God good?’
‘Sure! God’s good.’
‘Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?’
‘Yes’
‘Are you good or evil?’
‘The Bible says I’m evil.’
The professor grins knowingly. ‘Aha! The Bible!’ He considers for a moment. ‘Here’s one for you. Let’s say there’s a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?’
‘Yes sir, I would.’
‘So you’re good…!’
‘I wouldn’t say that.’
‘But why not say that? You’d help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn’t.’
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. ‘He doesn’t, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?’
The student remains silent.
‘No, you can’t, can you?’ the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
‘Let’s start again, young fella. Is God good?’
Er … yes,’ the student says.
‘Is Satan good?’
The student doesn’t hesitate on this one. ‘No.’
‘Then where does Satan come from?’
The student falters. ‘From God’
‘That’s right. God made Satan, didn’t he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?’
‘Yes, sir.’
‘Evil’s everywhere, isn’t it? And God did make everything, correct?’
‘Yes’
‘So who created evil?’ The professor continued, ‘If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.’
Again, the student has no answer. ‘Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?’
The student squirms on his feet. ‘Yes.’
‘So who created them?’
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. ‘Who created them?’ There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. ‘Tell me,’ he continues onto another student. ‘Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?’
The student’s voice betrays him and cracks. ‘Yes, professor, I do.’
The old man stops pacing. ‘Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?’
‘No sir. I’ve never seen Him.’
‘Then tell us if you’ve ever heard your Jesus?’
‘No, sir, I have not.’
‘Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?’
‘No, sir, I’m afraid I haven’t.’
‘Yet you still believe in him?’
‘Yes’
‘According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?’
‘Nothing,’ the student replies. ‘I only have my faith.’
‘Yes, faith,’ the professor repeats. ‘And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.’
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. ‘Professor, is there such thing as heat?’
‘ yes.
‘And is there such a thing as cold?’
‘Yes, son, there’s cold too.’
‘No sir, there isn’t.’
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. ‘You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don’t have anything called ‘cold’. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.’
‘Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.’
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
‘What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?’
‘Yes,’ the professor replies without hesitation. ‘What is night if it isn’t darkness?’
‘You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it’s called darkness, isn’t it? That’s the meaning we use to define the word.’
‘In reality, darkness isn’t. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?’
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. ‘So what point are you making, young man?’
‘Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.’
The professor’s face cannot hide his surprise this time. ‘Fl awed? Can you explain how?’
‘You are working on the premise of duality,’ the student explains. ‘You argue that there is life and then there’s death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can’t even explain a thought.’
‘It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.’
‘Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?’
‘If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.’
‘Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?’
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
‘Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?’
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
‘To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.’
The student looks around the room. ‘Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor’s brain?’ The class breaks out into laughter.
‘Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor’s brain, felt the professor’s brain, touched or smelt the professor’s brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.’
‘So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lecture s, sir?’
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.
Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. ‘I guess you’ll have to take them on faith.’
‘Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,’ the student continues. ‘Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?’
Now uncertain, the professor responds, ‘Of course, there is. We see it everyday It is in the daily example of man’s inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.’
To this the student replied, ‘Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God’s love present in his heart. It’s like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.’
The professor sat down.
If you read it all the way through and had a smile on your face when you finished, mail to your friends and family with the title ‘God vs Science’
PS: the student was Albert Einstein
Albert Einstein did write a book titled God vs Science in 1921…
God vs Science
May 31st, 2008 at 11:56 am
Where is your evidence for the assertion that Albert Einstein wrote a book in 1921 titled Gov vs. Science? You won’t find any evidence for this if you Google it. Did you make this up?
June 1st, 2008 at 1:05 am
I will certainly google it, and check to see if it exists. As I said, I received it from a parishioner. If it doesn’t, I apologize, but I still think it makes the point about words I made in the opening paragraph, and our need as human beings to walk humbly and in awe.
July 18th, 2008 at 6:22 am
Are you seriously putting this forward as some sort of valid argument? What point do you think it makes?
August 23rd, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Pity you wouldn’t let facts enter this mix. Einstein didn’t write a book titled “God vs Science” He did write a paper titled “Science and Religion” Below is a section from Wikipedia. If you want to further your religious agenda, please be intellectually honest about it.
Einstein published a paper in Nature in 1940 entitled “Science and Religion”[61] in which says that: “a person who is religiously enlightened appears to me to be one who has, to the best of his ability, liberated himself from the fetters of his selfish desires and is preoccupied with thoughts, feelings and aspirations to which he clings because of their super-personal value … regardless of whether any attempt is made to unite this content with a Divine Being, for otherwise it would not be possible to count Buddha and Spinoza as religious personalities. Accordingly a religious person is devout in the sense that he has no doubt of the significance of those super-personal objects and goals which neither require nor are capable of rational foundation … In this sense religion is the age-old endeavour of mankind to become clearly and completely conscious of these values and goals, and constantly to strengthen their effects.” He argued that conflicts between science and religion “have all sprung from fatal errors.” “[E]ven though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other” there are “strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies … science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind … a legitimate conflict between science and religion cannot exist.” In Einstein’s view, “neither the rule of human nor Divine Will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted … by science, for [it] can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.” (Einstein 1940, pp. 605–607)
To me, that looks like one thing can be certain. You shouldn’t let people try to blur the lines between science and religion. Science is about fact, religion is about faith and belief. While faith and belief can be powerful things, they are, by definition, not something that can be quantified by facts. Which would mean that they have no place in a scientific argument.
Sean
September 2nd, 2008 at 12:29 am
This is an urban legend that has been going around for years. The next time one of your parishioners gives you a story, you might want to research its veracity before repeating it.
http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp
Einstein wasn’t a Christian. That should have been your first red flag.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Einstein was raised in a Jewish family. thus y he believes in god. you don’t have to be christian to believe in god.
September 19th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Fr.Bob thanks for your untiring efforts to encourage the faithful. If the faithful see through a glass darkly (I Corinthians 13 [show]1 Corinthians 13
), than it is not surprising that those who oppose faith are in the absolute dark (the absence of light).
The Way of Love
[13:1]If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. [2]And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. [3]If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,(1) but have not love, I gain nothing.
[4]Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant [5]or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;(2) [6]it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. [7]Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
[8]Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. [9]For we know in part and we prophesy in part, [10]but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. [11]When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. [12]For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
[13]So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (ESV)
Footnotes
1. [13:3] Some manuscripts 'deliver up my body' [to death] 'that I may boast'
2. [13:5] Greek 'irritable and does not count up wrongdoing'
I love this story and the thoughts it presents. But let’s present it has it is, a fable or a parable.
November 11th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
I got this email, and it isn’t Fr. Bob who says he wrote the book, he was just posting the email. That comment about “he did write a book entitled God vs. Religion” is in the original email that is floating around. He was just posting what he was given. I just wanted to say that.
November 19th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
It is now almost 6 months since I posted this. It is still very popular. I’m not sure why, but I suspect it has something to do with the PS at the bottom. I certainly did not intend to mislead, and I only posted it because it made the point of how words can clarify, prove, confuse, destroy, be helpful, wound etc. etc.. ” (This was coming from a conversation I had with some one at the time I received this dialogue, and felt inclined to post it.) It seems, however, that it is also very important who says the words. I apologize to anyone who has been mislead by this because I quoted it. I certainly will be more careful. But, on the other hand, it reminds me to think for myself, and not to easily acquiesce to culture, TV personalities, and other popular voices.
December 1st, 2008 at 7:13 pm
There is no book titled God vs. Science written in 1921 by Albert Einstein. This is merely another instance of a nice story with a good moral and lesson on our misunderstanding of duality…however, it holds no truth about Einstein.
December 2nd, 2008 at 8:57 am
I think it is funny how that so many are so caught up in the fact that it didn’t come from Einstein and because of that are missing the truth in the arguments that are made. This is a simple and yet astounding piece of theology. It is also foolish to try to separate science and religion. In the Christian faith, science proves our Creator to be as big and mysterious as he claims to be. God created science, so we shouldn’t separate him from it, but enjoy how science indicates that there was a creator with a design and a plan. Look at how intricate humanity is, there is no way that it could have been an accident or without purpose.
December 4th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
God created Science
Iv always been a big believer in Science and in God. There are some conflicts between logic and the bible. This is my idea and what I believe about Science vs the bible. I believe the first book Genesis and the last book Revelation are not meant to be taken literally but more symbolically. For example. In Genesis, When god created the earth in seven days maybe it took 70 billion years. (Just throwing a number up there.) Why would god not say 70 billion years? Because the word billion did not exist back when the book was written. Nobody needed a number that big. And I don’t think that’s the point of Genesis. It was meant to explain how things came about and the general purpose of mankind. The bible was written so that all could understand, even for simple minded kids. The bible was not meant to be a measuring device. But a guide to peace and Harmony. I believe in the big bang. I believe that god created matter and all the energies and all the laws of which matter and energy abide by. Why couldn’t god be Alfa and Omega and create matter and energy at a single point and say bang and every thing was created over a long period of time. A second to God could could be a billion years to us.
And on evolution. I believe in it. You can observe it through a micro scope on life forms that have a high rate of reproduction. Humans have bread dogs , cats horses and other domestic animals from wild animals. A dalmatian is the same species as a wild wolf even though they look totally different. Are these man designed creatures bad because they are not naturally made by god? No because God designed us in his special way and we designed creatures like the dalmatian. So essentially God designed the dalmatian in a special way too. God can do anything in any way he wants.
The circle and pie: There is one mystery that we can see that science can not fully explain. Every thing in nature has a numerical pattern except for the most simple shape. The circle. Pie is 3.14and continues on to infinity of seemingly random numbers with no pattern. Scientist and mathematicians are still adding on to it. Does God have a sense of humor? Why couldn’t he make the circumference of a circle equal to an even 3. times the circles diameter? Why 3.14and on to infinity with no pattern?
Well I could go on and on about what I believe about God and Science but that would take an eternity, and Iv got other things to do. I hope this opens peoples eyes to why its foolish for atheist scientists and Bible thumpers to have so much conflict.
December 6th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
This conversation seems to me to illustrate exactly what has happened to a number of intuitive truths in the world. The religious of one stripe or another get a hold of them, add their own misguided statements and reckless claims, and diminish the credibility of the original truth.
I reckon there is a god and imagine god often says “hey pallie, stay off my side, would ya?”
December 9th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
As a Science Teacher, it is so sad that people can not make a differentiation between religion and science. Its a shame that the Religion of Evolution is taught to millions of students everyday, but I can’t teach my Christian Creation Religion. I won’t teach mine, if you don’t teach yours. How about we give the kids the facts and let them figure it out for themselves. They can understand and make inferences better than we give them credit for!
December 17th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
[…] Einstein wrote a book titled God vs. Science, but he wrote Science and Religion. Check this link(God Versus Science), there also the same conversation is given and argued. […]
January 12th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
If you get caught up in the Einstien line you have issues. There is some very insightful logic that sheds some light on the age-old athiest argument. I know it is not genuine in full. One reason being…We all know the professor would have never just ’sat down’. He would have become spitting mad and and argued his point hysterically or simply stomped out of the room like a big baby.
January 22nd, 2009 at 12:25 am
Fr. Bob,
I stumbled on your website while researching Albert Einstein and his publishings. First let me wish you well and a speedy recovery. God bless you for the work you do. We need you! Do not be disheartened by the unfaithful and their terse gibberish. God loves them and so we must as well even though difficult. They will know we are Christians by our love. I am humbled by your willingness to host a website,…for you must have known that you would be subject to the onslaught of those who are not evil but rather “without God”. My wife, children and I will say a special prayer for your health in the name of my Patron St. Anthony of Padua. God bless you Father. The work that you and the clergy do is a selfless act and desparately needed in modern times. Continue to fight the good fight.
your friend in Christ Jesus,
Dan from Idaho, U.S.
January 25th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Parallel redux: Sheer monopolism does not a cogent argument make.
Father Bob,
The following is my take on this discussion before us. It, as it turns out, is more important than not for many varying reasons.
To wit:
May it be successfully argued that faith is, in exact terms, an absence of logic? May it further be argued, that the inexact nature of defining something as being undefinable, is one and the same, i.e. dispossessed of both logic and faith?
The vicissitudes of thoughts are knights errant on the highways of reason. Hence, we are left with our own “tabula rasa” upon which no remedies appear. Enlightened men, through the aquisition of logical standards of thinking, are taken beyond the boundaries of mortal thought, and reside temporarily, in the uncertain Inns found along those same highways of reason.
Such sustenance as may be found, is of little consequence to the wanderer. Ever, it seems, there is but a corner to be turned, and there, shall be the fulfilling nourishment for the lackluster soul. Many, those times may they be, when a man devoid of suitable answers, shall turn wistfully to yet another less travelled byway, and find for him at least, a soothing balm of rapturous joy. That, formerly inexplicable, is of sudden propiety within his mind, and elsewhere also.
In the dusty caverns of his inquiring mind, solace extends itself as an answer to his nagging questions, and all is whole once more.
What then, instigated this morphosis?
Faith.
Faith and logic are disparate, and are so, at the same time, and in all dimensions. The one, logic, attempts to be explanatory of all things. The second, faith, is an exercise, not of futility, but rather, a belief in a better way to understand those things logically unexplainable. A man of faith may be a logician. A man of logic may at times, resort to faith, if only in himself, to better understand those things not explained for him by his power of logic.
In each instance, both are correct, both in their assertions, and in their understandings of unknowable things to them at any given moment. Both are the better, but neither is better than the other. A curious “checkmate” this is, albeit one upon which, both might agree. In that regard, they are both whole, both co-resident on the plane of ultimate awareness.
Einstein’s reputed logic, if the example given is true, led him inescapably, and correctly, to his just conclusions. They are his alone. They may be shared, but to a certain extent only, for it is within the hearts of men, as to how far they may be led, or taken.
Call it Divine Providence. Call it what you will. It is an answer, and such answer must be suitable for each in turn. There may be no simultaneity of thought at all, merely, a general, and unspecific concurrence of thought.
No! The question will never be one answered to the satisfaction of the many, nor the few, nor perhaps, the lone individual resting in contemplative thought, in the Inn on the byway of his life.
January 29th, 2009 at 11:33 am
For those looking for scientific support of faith, I recommend you look at the facts for yourself. You may also want to check out the works of men like Lee Strobel, Josh McDowell, and C.S. Lewis, former atheists who set out to disprove Christianity, only to come to the conclusion, based on the hard evidence (which you scientists require) that Christ did exist; he is the son of God; he rose from the dead; and He is the Savior of sinners. Yes we have faith, but it is a faith that has a basis of facts and truth.
February 1st, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Father Bob,
Hopefully, you do not include me as one searching for scientific validation. I am a man of profound faith, a man who has settled within the acceptance of others views as being those views to which they were led by personal circumstance. I give them their due, while attempting to discern their particular logic standards. This is done in the hope of better understanding each man in turn; each woman in turn.
All God’s children, possessed of free will, traverse paths somewhere between the boundaries of human existence. This fact leads one to an awareness of the possibilities inherent in the child’s mind, to where he will be led, and to where he will lead himself. No matter the extent of such travels, and no matter the direction, it is sometimes easier to co-exist on parallel paths. Paths that ultimately lead to one place alone: God’s Heaven.
This I believe, this I cherish in His name.
February 4th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
To Rudy
I was very troubled to read what you believe. Let me start by saying that I’m a Bible believing Christian, and there is no, contradictions nor any false logic in the Bible. I would like to go over what you wrote line by line, and see if I can help you understand God a little better. Because not only do I believe in God, but I also believe that there is a Devil. He (Satan or the Devil) has come to steal, kill, and destroy. Also you need to remember that God is not the author of confusion, but Satan is. Satan can not create anything on his own, he must twist and manipulate what God has created. So bare with me as I go through what you have posted.
“Iv always been a big believer in Science and in God.”
I’m glad that you’re a believer of science and in God, however, you must not try to conform God to what mainstream “science” is currently teaching. I don’t believe in any conflict between God and Science, nor Science and the Bible.
“There are some conflicts between logic and the bible.”
Now I’m not sure why you would say this. I must come to the conclusion that you do not believe that the Bible is Gods word, inspirationally written by man. If this is that case (which it must be), then I would encourage you to get an Authorized version aka the King James Version of the Bible. You must understand that Satan is the author of confusion and just the very fact that we have so many translations should concern you. Why on earth would God need to have hundreds of different translations? Doesn’t God do something once and then it’s done? Why so much to choose from? So much confusion? This is a large discussion and we can visit it later if you wish.
“This is my idea and what I believe about Science vs the bible. I believe the first book Genesis and the last book Revelation are not meant to be taken literally but more symbolically. For example. In Genesis, When god created the earth in seven days maybe it took 70 billion years. (Just throwing a number up there.) Why would god not say 70 billion years? Because the word billion did not exist back when the book was written. Nobody needed a number that big.”
I understand why you might be confused here. However, I feel that you are mistaken when you say that the Bible must not be taken literally (even though you only stated first and the last books). The Bible must be taken literally, unless the text suggests otherwise. For instance, in Revelation when John is talking about what he’s seeing. There is no such thing as a beast with ten heads, and crowns etc. But, when Genesis talks about what God did on the first day, second day etc. these are real true things. And yes they were 24-hour days as we observe today. If you would like to go more in depth here then I could write pages about why it is impossible to believe in billions, millions, or thousands of years and the Bible. Scientifically it would be impossible. Let me know if you would like to pursue this further.
“And I don’t think that’s the point of Genesis. It was meant to explain how things came about and the general purpose of mankind. The bible was written so that all could understand, even for simple minded kids.”
do you not understand? Why force evolution into the Bible when it’s perfectly good and right the way it’s written?
Yes, the book of Genesis does explain how the earth and the surrounding universe was created. Yes, the Bible was written so that all understand, even the most intelligent. Tell me friend, how is it that you do not understand it then? What part of Exodus 20:11 [show]Exodus 20:11
[11]For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (ESV)
“I believe in the big bang. I believe that god created matter and all the energies and all the laws of which matter and energy abide by. Why couldn’t god be Alfa and Omega and create matter and energy at a single point and say bang and every thing was created over a long period of time. A second to God could could be a billion years to us.”
I agree that God created all matter and energy, but He also created time and space. Gen.1:1 In the beginning, God created the heaven and earth. In the beginning (time=past, present and future) heaven(space=length, width and height) earth(matter=solid, liquid and gas). God could have created everything in and instant and said bang, He’s God. But that would contradict God, and what He says He did. He did it in six days because He wanted to set an example for the human race. He set this up for us because he knew that to remain healthy we must rest once a week. When you say that on second to God could be a billion years to us, then I think that you are trying real hard to fit God in a box that you can understand. Why would God the creator of time be bound by it. Is the man that created the computer in there changing the numbers on the screen? No. That would be absurd. The same way God isn’t bound by His creation, so our understanding of God is beyond what we can test and demonstrate in science.
“And on evolution. I believe in it. You can observe it through a micro scope on life forms that have a high rate of reproduction. Humans have bread dogs , cats horses and other domestic animals from wild animals. A dalmatian is the same species as a wild wolf even though they look totally different. Are these man designed creatures bad because they are not naturally made by god? No because God designed us in his special way and we designed creatures like the dalmatian. So essentially God designed the dalmatian in a special way too. God can do anything in any way he wants.”
You must be careful what you are doing here. Please be careful about the switch your doing in your own mind. Yes, it’s true that micro-evolution (if you choose to use the term, which I object too) does happen. In fact that is science! However, when those life forms under that microscope change, tell me friend what do they change into? Are they still not a micro-organism? When humans breed different dogs to re-produce another type dog? What kind of animal is it? If you look carefully then you will find that it is still a dog! And no information has been added to produce that dog either. In-fact every generation loses information. The genetic code is a very complex testament to how awe inspiring and amazing our Creator really is. Please don’t use an example of the same kind of animal producing another kind of animal, as an example of how things change into other kinds of animals. It’s not even science, in-fact I would venture to say that it’s a religion all of it’s own. And I would caution you as another brother or sister in the Lord to please be careful there. We know how God feels about idolatry.
The above is all I felt that needed to be brought to your attention. Talking about pie. 3.14 etc I believe doesn’t relate to the conversation. Have a wonderful day and if you would like to discuss anything further please let me know.
February 4th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
This is disgusting. First of all it’s not even a real book as mentioned. The book einstein did write only discredits this. Here it is plain and simple: Science is man’s best attempt to proove things based on fact. Religion is to calm the masses and give them something to believe in. Its a made up story… various stories.. hence why we have so many version (ie religions) and it does a good job at giving answers in a simple form to life’s questions for simple people. THE END.
February 5th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Logically speaking, since God created everything (according to the Bible), He also created Satan. Why would God want to create Satan? The Catholics have a statement of faith. It says “God is the maker of Heaven and Earth, of all things seen and un-seen”. Therefore God must have created evil.
Evil can not possibly mean “the absence of God”. Unless I’m mistaken, the Bible also says God is everywhere. So, how can he be absent from anywhere? If God is everywhere, then evil cannot possibly exist.
I believe there is a higher power, always have. For me, that’s good enough. Trying to put a label on it (such as the Muslim Allah, the Christian God, the Jewish God, Buddha, etc) is a complete waste of time. Trying to explain the mystery and wonder of the higher power is also a complete waste of time. It exists. End of story as far as I’m concerned.
P.S. I differentiate between the Christian God and the Jewish God because Christians believe Jesus Christ is also God. Jews don’t.
February 6th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
To help out a bit, the Hebrew for the word “day” in the creation only means a discreet period of time. It could mean 24 hours or it could mean 24 million years. But whatever the days were, they were at least set periods of time.
God is everywhere. But he can hide himself from his creation; he can withdraw his active power to any extent. Where he has withdrawn his active work in maintaining peace there is where we see evil things occur.
Take people for example. God is in all people (because he is everywhere). The extent that the Spirit is active in a person is inversely proportional to a person’s evil.
Why does God not exercise his full power of maintaining absolute mercy and grace over all of creation all of the time? I don’t know. God gives me the same answer he gave Job: basically, it’s not my role as a human servant to be concerned about it.
But it is good for us to correctly understand what he has chosen to reveal to us.
February 20th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
It is irrelevant whether Einstein wrote or not. What is important is the logic and to refute of the atheistic premise.
We as humans like to make God in our image and likeness. He is a bit greater than that. we are made in His image and likeness not the other way around. It is in free will that this is most apparent. If God were here for all things great and small He would encroach on our free will. it is in adversity that we choose God or not God. this choice is all important in establishing our free will.
It would be a meaningless gesture if we were controlled by God to do the things that are good and forsake any evil. It is the ultimate test if we are free to choose what is God’s ( Good) and forsake evil.
If we believe in science and God as well as creation and evolution I find no conflict. We can trace time back to the Big Bang and no farther. It is apparent that there was no Time before that occurrence. Therefore, if God exists he existed before time. Time is by our definition the measurement of the movement of matter. We and all things were created by the Big Bang and subsequent events including evolution. It is dangerous let religion conflict with science/nature. Re. Galileo vs the Catholic church etc.
It is apparent that God creator of all things (that we see) is not bound as we are to the limitations of our physical world. He is limitless and All powerful.
The most important quote about God is I believe from Thomas Aquinas. He said “God is.” By implication, any other thing to modify that statement would limit God and He is limitless.
There is something that God cannot do. that is to contradict Himself.
March 2nd, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Dear Father Bob,
I have received this before, if you check the Snopes site: http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp, you will find they rate this false.
Whoever wrote this dialog has constructed an amazing argument: pro Trinity, Anit-Atheist. Too bad it is not a real incident.
Another interesting site: god-my-reveal.blogspot.com/2007/05/albert-einstein-human-side.html , gives excerpts from a book written about Einstein.
March 5th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
I don’t have a problem with people having faith, and I am never one to put my views on others - but I think that this is ridiculous. You can’t take a mythical story and treat it like it’s real - Einstein never even wrote anything called “God. Vs. Science.” And, yes - okay, I could see how the point could be good for people who believe in “god” - but honestly, I feel like the whole Christian faith does things like this all of the time - makes things up to try to make others see their way of life.
I chose to live the life as an Atheist, because I feel like any religion puts too many restrictions on people/society. I don’t know why I’m even writing in this forum, but I can’t believe some of the things that people said, therefore, I’m going to speak my mind. First off, religion (a lot doing with Christianity) has created wars in it’s name all throughout history, it puts restrictions on women, it’s organized (why does something as holy as “god” have to be organized? is this just another corrupt institution in some ways? possibly), it’s just another way to keep the people that are following in check - another way for the masses to have control. People are scared to do certain things because their religion says that it’s bad, but morally, it’s okay. I could go on and on, but I don’t have all day.
Regardless, for people to put god and science in the same category - I think it’s absurb. They are seperate. Faith was created to have something to believe in, to have something to hope for, etc. I don’t have a problem with that at all, and I can definitely see how that’s helpful for someone at a time of need. But, faith is manmade — evolutionary science is not. It makes no sense to put the two together. And, if people want to talk about evolution - they should know their facts about it before knocking it. We DID NOT evolve from “monkeys” (which, I’m sure you’re looking for the word “primates”) - Humans have a common ancestor with Primates. And everyone is basing their “facts” on what the bible says - the bible was man-made, written by man. Who knows if this person was telling the truth or not?
Like I said earlier, I think it’s okay for people to believe what they want to believe, but when you’re putting yourself out there like that (on the internet), with a story that isn’t even true, you should expect people to say some things. I don’t have a problem with anyone’s religion, but I DO have a problem when people aren’t even using the correct information for their argument. And, I’m not here to try to make people see my way of how we got here, but to defend my side.
March 11th, 2009 at 6:15 am
When you google “einstein book god vs science” this site is the number one link.
No disrespect to anyone’s religion, but Einstein does not deserve to be slandered. His conception of God was well thought out and deserves the same respect as anyone elses. I would imagine a minister would not be happy if an atheistic story was attributed to him and ranked very high on google.
April 2nd, 2009 at 12:07 pm
I consider it a waste of time to be so consume with who wrote that passage when time could be better spent focusing on the smiple yet profound logic of the ideas presented there in and the impact it’s conclusion have on our very exsistence as well as our finding a purpose to life.Every simple to complex gadget that was every invented, was, we agree made by someone , with a specific purpose, so think about it ,how much more so the intricate and complexities of our bodies and the universe around us.
April 2nd, 2009 at 4:19 pm
I agree,who cares who wrote the passage, the point is it makes sense!
Choosing not to believe in something , does not in any way make the obvious reason for doing so invalid.Scientist have laboured in vain to explain the mysterious of life ; where did we come from , why are we here , and for choosing not to accept the overwhelming evidence, all around us, of a powerful creator, the philosophical, futile debates go on.
April 18th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
http://www.drdino.com/index.php
April 20th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
It matters quite a bit as to who wrote that passage since it is being ascribed to Albert Einstein for the sole purpose of adding credence to it. Einstein is cited because his intelligence was of such a magnitude, that it was almost god-like. In fact, Einstein did not believe in a personal God. If we had to put a label on him it would either be “agnostic” or it would be “pantheist.” If it were pantheist, then all that would mean is that Einstein saw God as being a part of or rather as revealing Himself/Herself/Itself in the mysteries of the cosmos. Einstein never believed in a God who rewards or punishes the objects of his supposed creation–that is, humans.
April 24th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
There is no refutation of an atheistic premise here, because the internal logic of the theistic argument is entirely derived from the non-empirical premises that God exists. It’s a construction of circular reasoning! The attempt to discern the existence of God (and the concordant duality of good/evil) from the nature of heat/cold or light/darkness (which honestly, no science professor worth their salt would have fallen for) is a false comparison. The attempt to prove the existence of God via inductive logic is a failed effort, due to the absence of empirical evidence. An argument with logical internal consistency is not valid by nature of its internal consistency alone: it must have verifiable premises in order to be accepted as true.
Further, despite persistent claims to the contrary, macroevolution HAS been demonstrated in the laboratory. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
Clear speciation has taken place. Not only this, but there’s plenty of evidence in the fossil records regarding intermediate species (Archaeopteryx, anyone?). The demand that we “witness” natural evolutionary speciation is an unreasonable one, given that formal, rigorous evolutionary theory has been in existence for less time than would be required for natural speciation to take place. I mean, The Origin of Species was written in 1859, for Pete’s sake. In light of that, it’s profoundly silly to say “show me that we’ve observed a process that takes thousands of years in the natural world. Sorry, time’s up!”
Thirdly, thoughts CAN be seen. Perhaps not to the level of detail that the author of this piece demands, but PET and MRI scans have clearly demonstrated that regions of the brain preferentially activate based on the particular cognitive demands that are being placed upon the subject. Again, empirical, verifiable fact, rather than a proposition based on fuzzy semantics.
Faith is fine, and I have no argument with those who choose to believe what they will about a divine being…but the arguments that have been made are utterly specious in their nature. Even more egregious to me is the attempt to hijack the legacy of a brilliant thinker such as Einstein and subvert it to a religious cause to which, as an avowed agnostic, he would have been completely opposed.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:18 am
I have always been amused by the faith-science conflict. To me, the aim of both is the same: to discover the truth. I believe most people of science would agree in the simple statement: the more you know, the more you realize how much you don’t know. To me, each new scientific discovery only serves to glorify God even more, for the profoundness of creation.
May 30th, 2009 at 9:51 am
It is a nice “story” but I am seriously annoyed and disappointed. Annoyed because this “story” is attributed to Einstein really arbitrarily: “hmm lets see, how could have done such thing”… Disappointed, because it is seriously pathetic, trying to earn credit for “the story” on Einstein’s back.
P.S. There is even an advertisement in macedonia to bring back religious education to schools, depicting this very exact “story”…
June 5th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Amen to this. Preach it baby.
June 22nd, 2009 at 5:18 pm
If evolution is true and I descended from a monkey, how come there is still monkeys?
Obviously there are still monkeys, ergo evolution is a lie!
QED
July 29th, 2009 at 10:34 am
to # 4 Sean, August 23rd, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Really, to ask someone to be ‘intellectually honest’ then quote from wikipedia?
It is universally known that wikipedia is unreliable, although millions of people refer to it. ANYONE, can post an article on wikipedia. Any student writing a decent paper would know better than to say they got their information from wikipedia.
Anyways, my point is that your ‘facts’ are not really facts if you get them from wikipedia. & although you are right about einstein not writing that book, next time try to get your facts from somewhere else? It’ll give you a lot more credibility.
Besides all my nonsense about the unreliability of Wikipedia, many people are not seeing the real point of this story. It is not meant to show that Einstein believed in God or that he supported God. It merely shows that there are ways through which we can defend our belief in God.
It does not mean that science is against religion if there are some arguments that could be used from science to discredit religion. & to those who say science has more credit that religion where’s your proof? I’m not saying that religion trumps science. No way. I’m just saying all areas of knowledge have their weak points.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
@ #14,
You, and many people here, don’t understand the fundamentals of science. Science is making hypothesis you can test. If creationism is true, then what is there to test? What can you make a prediction of, observe, and test? What study can there be to _prove_ the existence of intelligent design? You can’t. The answer to why things are the way they are for creationists and intelligent design proponents are that, it’s the way god made it. Evolution is tought because it has survived countless scientific scrutiny. It is based on facts, that anyone can test and observe. There is not an “religion of evolution”, there is a scientific consensus.
There is a place for religion, but it is NOT in science. Science is based on facts and things you can observe and verify. Supernatural things and God do not need to abide by the rules that govern the universe, and there for can not be tested and verified. There is no way to prove God exists, and the logic fallacy that whatever science hasn’t figured out proves that god does exists is complete nonsence. Yes science hasn’t figured everything out, yet. There is always more to learn, and that gap in knowledge that Einstein refers to in his paper, will all ways exist and it is that realm that believers will try to cling to for evidence of god.
September 16th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
/facepalm
The reason that so man people discredit this story based on the fact that it is not from Albert Einstein is because that fact alone is the only reason to take it seriously.
The student’s argument is flawed in every way. 1) Even though cold doesn’t exist scientifically as a noun, it still exists as an adjective, it is a feeling. 2) Same principle for darkness vs. light. 3) Evolution is a theory with facts existing in the collective scientific pool of knowledge to make it credible, still it is only a theory and a philosophy professor shouldn’t be teaching it at all because it isn’t his subject matter. 4) The existence of the professor’s brain can be assumed based on the collective pool of knowledge that shows that brains consistently do exist in human beings. 5) The idea that you must accept all of these things on “faith,” is fallacious, you have every right to be critical of them, and you do not need to believe 100% in the state of the professor’s mind in order to gain something from it, and if you did you would be a sheep. This logic just as easily shows that you can never be 100% certain of the existence of god, counter to the stance of most Christians. 6) If evil is simply the lack of God, this either proves that God does not exist, or it proves that he is not omnipresent.
September 16th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
regardles! of Who wrote this you cannot denied the facts and the brilliance on this Story.
September 20th, 2009 at 10:16 am
Howdy all,
It’s been long over a year since this original post was made and my comment addresses some of the earlier responses:
Pie has long been associated with the circle. When I first learned the formula for a circle’s area, my family reminded me that pie are *NOT* square, pie are round!
PI, on the other hand, is approximated as 3.14…
Thanks.
Steve.
September 21st, 2009 at 4:21 pm
As a Lutheran, I believe we are saved through “faith alone.” Thank God for free will. For skeptics, consider this bit of logic: if my faith in God ultimately proves to be a waste of time, I neither win nor lose anything over eternity. Consider the obverse if you are a non-believer.
September 24th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
To #38, Bernz, 7/29/09, 10:34am
As a reference librarian, i believe you’re coming down too hard on both #4 and on Wikipedia. Both provide a reference as to where specific information was obtained. Just because you can’t believe everything you read on Wikipedia doesn’t mean that you can’t believe ANYTHING you read on Wikipedia! It can be an excellent starting point for further research. In my own further research, I learned this:
Although Einstein did not write a book titled God vs. Science in 1921, he did indeed write an article titled “Science and Religion,” published in Nature, November 1940, Volume 146, Issue 3706, pp. 605-607. The text of his address of the same title, presented the same year at The Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion, can be found here:
http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/einsteinsgod/einstein-scienceandreligion.shtml
or
http://tinyurl.com/ye72na7
September 28th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
curt #6 says u don’t have to be christian to believe in god–isn’t that the definition of being a christian–i am sorry but if you believe in god you are a christian
October 1st, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Wrong. Plenty of non-Christians believe in God. They may even believe in Jesus as a person. They just don’t believe Jesus was the son of God, died for the sins of the world, and rose from the dead.
October 5th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
So, if believing in the Biblical account of Creation is unscientific and purely based on religious faith…then what is evolution? Can anyone offer a single, established, proven fact concerning evolution? Just one. One that I can’t refute.
October 8th, 2009 at 5:31 am
When Genesis speaks of creation, God creates and adds light (not the sun), it isn’t until the fourth day he adds the sun, moon and stars. He does this for us to keep track of time.
So, first three days Gods time, Gods light. Fourth day he getting ready to hand it to us. Our sun and 24 hour days.
This whole God made Satan thing is ridiculous. Satan represents a decision, Exactly like we make every day. God gave us free will to chose. God created Satan (he was an angel) and Satan chose to leave God behind and persue something else (a hatred of man, jealousy) Many of us also chose every day to turn away from God. Our decisions, like Satan’s are our own they don’t become God’s fault any more than someones child deciding to be a murderer reflects on thier parents.
October 26th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
WHEN someone says, ‘I believe only in what I can see,’ he is not speaking literally. Actually, we all believe in things that we cannot see.
For example, at school you may have performed an experiment designed to prove the existence of a magnetic field. It may go like this: Sprinkle iron filings on a sheet of paper. Then place the sheet over the magnet. When the sheet is vibrated, as if by magic the iron filings bunch up near the magnet’s poles and form into the pattern of the magnetic field. If you did that, could you actually see the magnetic field? No, but its effect on the iron filings is plain to see, giving you convincing proof that magnetism exists.
We accept without question other things that we cannot see. When we look at a beautiful painting or admire a fine sculpture, we do not doubt the existence of a painter or a sculptor. So when we contemplate a waterfall or gaze at a sunset, should we not be moved at least to consider the possibility that they are the work of a Great Artist or Sculptor?
Why Some Do Not Believe
Ironically, some people have stopped believing in God because of what they were taught in church. This was true of a Norwegian man who was told that God burns the wicked in a fiery hell. The man just could not understand what kind of God would torment people in that way, so he became an atheist.
Later, however, the man agreed to investigate the Bible, assisted by one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. He was amazed to learn that the Bible does not teach that the wicked are tortured in a fiery hell. The Bible likens death to sleep. In the grave, we feel no pain; we are conscious of nothing at all. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 [show]Ecclesiastes 9:5
) The man also learned that those humans whom God judges to be incorrigibly wicked will remain in the grave forever. (Matthew 12:31, 32 [show]Matthew 12:31
) The rest of the dead will be resurrected in God’s due time, with the prospect of obtaining everlasting life under Paradise conditions. (John 5:28, 29 [show]John 5:28
; 17:3) This explanation made sense. It harmonized with the Bible’s statement that “God is love.” (1 John 4:8 [show]1 John 4:8
) This sincere man continued his study of God’s Word and, in time, came to love the God of the Bible.
[5]For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. (ESV)
Ecclesiastes 9:10
[10]Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might,(1) for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. (ESV)
Footnotes
1. [9:10] Or 'finds to do with your might, do it'
[31]Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. (ESV)
Matthew 12:32
[32]And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (ESV)
[28]Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice (ESV)
John 5:29
[29]and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (ESV)
[8]Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. (ESV)
Eagle Nebula: J. Hester and
P. Scowen (AZ State Univ.), NASA
Others reject the existence of a loving Creator because of the prevalence of distress and injustice. They agree with a Swedish man who once pointed to the heavens and asked: “How could there be an almighty, all-bountiful God up there when we have so much corruption and wickedness down here?” Because no one could answer his question, he too became an atheist. Later he began to study the Bible with Jehovah’s Witnesses. He learned that God’s Word provides a satisfying answer to the age-old question, Why does God permit wickedness?*
This sincere man learned that the existence of wickedness does not in itself prove that God does not exist. To illustrate: A man may design a knife to be used to carve meat. A customer may purchase the knife and use it, not to carve meat, but to commit murder. The fact that the knife was misused in no way disproves the existence of its maker. Similarly, the fact that the earth has not been used in harmony with its intended purpose does not mean that it did not have a Creator.
The Bible teaches that God’s work is perfect. With him “there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he.” (Deuteronomy 32:4 [show]Deuteronomy 32:4
) God gives good gifts to man, but some of the gifts have been misused, causing untold suffering. (James 1:17 [show]James 1:17
) God will bring an end to suffering, however. Thereafter, “the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, . . . and they will reside forever upon it.”—Psalm 37:11, 29 [show]Psalm 37:11
.
[4]"The Rock, his work is perfect,
for all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness and without iniquity,
just and upright is he.
[17]Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.(1) (ESV)
Footnotes
1. [1:17] Some manuscripts 'variation due to a shadow of turning'
[11]But the meek shall inherit the land
and delight themselves in abundant peace.
Psalm 37:29
[29]The righteous shall inherit the land
and dwell upon it forever.
The Swedish man mentioned earlier was moved when he saw the suffering of fellow humans. Really, his tender concern for others confirms the existence of God. How so?
For most people, the only alternative to belief in God is belief in evolution. Evolutionists teach “survival of the fittest”—that humans and animals compete within their kinds for survival. The fittest live; the weakest die. That is the natural order of things, they say. But if it is “natural” for the weak to die in order to make room for the strong, how can we explain the fact that, like the Swedish man, some strong humans are moved at the sight of the suffering of their fellowman?
Getting to Know God
We cannot see God because he does not have a human form. Yet, God wants us to get to know him. One way we can become acquainted with him is by observing his extraordinary works—the “paintings” and “sculptures” of creation. At Romans 1:20 [show]Romans 1:20
, the Bible states: “[God’s] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship.” Yes, just as studying a painting or a sculpture can help you gain insight into the personality of the artist, meditating on God’s marvelous works can help you become better acquainted with his personality.
[20]For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (ESV)
Of course, we cannot answer all of life’s nagging questions merely by looking at God’s creative works. But we can find answers to such questions by searching God’s Word, the Bible. It was by reading the Bible with an open mind that the two men mentioned earlier came to the conclusion that God exists and that he cares about what happens to us.
* For additional information on the reasons for God’s permitting wickedness, please see the book Is There a Creator Who Cares About You?, chapter 10, published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.
Appeared in The Watchtower June 15, 2000
October 27th, 2009 at 3:06 am
I am just thinking . . . Isn’t opinion a wonderful thing and so much more choice! Albert Einstein was a wonderful child of God, even though & sadly so, not a Christian. Yes, he grew up in Germany in a Jewish home but he knew & understand God far better than most of us Christians. I have learned a lot through his wisdom & teachings around God, which certainly enriched my life. Just as I’ve learned a lot through Messianic Rabbi’s.
I am now just wondering . . . if we all googled less, attacked each other less AND humbly learn from the true source of all Wisdom, whom is the Holy Spirit, would’nt we then live in more harmony, wouldn’t we then enjoy the e-mail about the Professor & the students, whilst dismissing the PS (the person who added that obviously was desperate to add weight to his story . . . he certainly got a lot more than he bargained for!) & we might just be encouraged to, just like this student (regardless wether it is fiction or truth) prepare ourselves to give a proper answer to the wolves in this world, whom God also loves so dearly, whom Jesus also died for & whom might be saved if only we focussing our thoughts & energy to study the original Scriptures & God instead of wasting our time googling and attacking one-another . . . Just a thought . . .
Madelein
October 28th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
To David Addison
1. The word “devil” means someone who tells wicked lies about another person. “Satan” means an enemy or an opposer. These are terms given to God’s chief enemy. At first, he was a perfect angel in heaven with God. However, he later thought too much of himself and wanted the worship that rightly belongs to God.—Matthew 4:8-10 [show]Matthew 4:8-10
.
[8]Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. [9]And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." [10]Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written,
"'You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.'"
2. This angel, Satan, spoke to Eve by means of a snake. By telling her lies, he got her to disobey God. Satan thus attacked what is called God’s “sovereignty,” or position as the Most High. Satan questioned whether God rules in a worthy way and in the best interests of His subjects. Satan also brought into question whether any human would remain loyal to God. By doing this, Satan made himself God’s enemy. That is why he came to be called Satan the Devil.—Genesis 3:1-5 [show]Genesis 3:1-5
; Job 1:8-11 [show]Job 1:8-11
; Revelation 12:9 [show]Revelation 12:9
.
The Fall
[3:1]Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.
He said to the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You(1) shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?" [2]And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, [3]but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" [4]But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. [5]For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (ESV)
Footnotes
1. [3:1] In Hebrew 'you' is plural in verses 1-5
[8]And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?" [9]Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for no reason? [10]Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. [11]But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face." (ESV)
[9]And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (ESV)
3. Satan tries to trick people into worshiping him. (2 Corinthians 11:3, 14 [show]2 Corinthians 11:3
) One way he misleads people is through false religion. If a religion teaches lies about God, it really serves the purpose of Satan. (John 8:44 [show]John 8:44
) People who are members of false religions may sincerely believe that they are worshiping the true God. But they are really serving Satan. He is ‘the god of this world.’—2 Corinthians 4:4 [show]2 Corinthians 4:4
.
[3]But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. (ESV)
2 Corinthians 11:14
[14]And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. (ESV)
[44]You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (ESV)
[4]In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (ESV)
November 17th, 2009 at 9:49 am
I would like to encourage the people decrying Christianity and the validity of the Bible as the inerrant word of God, to actually read it. Start with Proverbs, if you like. Were they really that much wiser back then or did this wisdom come from a Divine Creator? Notice the details that it goes into. Is that fiction? If it brings up questions, do what you would normally do and check into it from different angles.
I’ve been asked to study science from gradeschool through college and while I’m not a scientist, I’m fairly well versed on evolution. Why not give the Bible one “semester”? You could also join a bible study or go to a church that’s known for it’s bible teaching to enhance your own reading.
There is NO substitute for reading it yourself though - no shortcuts. Get a bible that’s written in today’s language to start. I also challenge you to do one other thing. Earnestly ask God to show you that he exists in ways that only mean something to you. Ask him to illuminate the Bible and to help you determine if it’s fact or fiction. The supernatural aspect of God’s power doesn’t negate, but actually enhances and illuminates science. It will also give you pause when you think that science still hasn’t found the missing link that proves that humans evolved from something that wasn’t born as a human - yet it’s presented as fact to so many. Why?
November 18th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
To the David Addison’s, Steven Atkinson’s and the JSG’s and their Ilk,
1Co 1:19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,
but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
This is not a refutation of science and logic but rather a refutation of faulty interpretations of the evidence we all have regarding origins, and causes, and life after death.
Since the world is divided into those who recognize the historicity and authority of Scripture and those who do not, some will accept the above - some will reject it.
When life is over for us, we will discover who is right and who is wrong. Forever is a long time to be wrong about how we will spend eternity.
November 25th, 2009 at 6:32 am
Nothing is sure, and the only thing where you can put youre trust in is faith.
November 25th, 2009 at 6:32 am
Allah Wa Akbar.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Gosh, this entire line of logic is so flawed that it’s funny. (What’s funny are the people who don’t care that what the story uses to substantiate credibility is actually a lie.)
Even in the 1930’s the average professor knew that cold and darkness were not actual substances. That’s a carryover from the middle ages and only convinces the uneducated and naive.
While I have never seen a virus mutate I have felt the effects of such a mutation and indeed scientists have observed this as well. And we know from repeated evidence that splitting someones head open will reveal a brain. That is a lot more evidence than theists provide for pretty much anything.
Many of today’s breakthrough medical treatments, computer advances and even the exploration for oil simply would not exist without evolution (There’s no oil for Sarah Palin under Creationism). To reject evolution as a fundamental scientific principle would require a theory that better fits the evidence that is observed and so far that has not been presented.
On page 20 of the 600+ page biography of Einstein by Walter Isaacson Einstein is quoted as saying, “Through the reading of popular scientific books, I soon reached the conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true.”
December 12th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Interesting arguments on both sides going on here. The story itself falls apart immediately when the statement that the student (who turns out to be Einstein) is Christian. This was of course done by the story’s creator in an effort to show that even the pre-eminent scientist of the 20th century was a believer, which of course he was not. Some (believers) say that the story can be taken as a parable, and is still equally valuable. But no, the value in having the student be Einstein is in the power of who he was. Inserting any other person in his place in this story is futile in terms of keeping the story’s impact.
In many of his writings, Einstein stated clearly his non-belief in a personal god, and complained about being constantly misquoted by those who sought to claim that he was a believer.
Promote your own beliefs, of course, but it is indeed sad that so many will use untruths such as this fake story to support them.
December 24th, 2009 at 12:35 am
Responding to #56
1000 years ago the scientific world ‘knew’ the universe revolved around the earth. 500 years ago science ‘knew’ the world was flat. 150 years ago we didn’t know atoms existed.
Some smugly say God cannot exist because of what we ‘know.’ How could the science of the day prove anything? We only know what God reveals to us…I wonder what we will know next century???
For me, I see God in so many things of this world that it feels natural and so easy for me to have faith. But I must say, I don’t have nearly as much faith as those who ‘believe’ that this world, and all life in it, emerged from slimy goo.
December 26th, 2009 at 10:11 am
First,it is of utmst importance to state that the argument aforementioned has very distinctive flaws. Even if the student cured the other if he could it wouldn’t mean he was good.Why didnt “Albert” note that.He could have cured the student for personal gain as many doctors do today. Also,we believe in our free will which disputes the argument that God created the devil.God created Lucifer the most beautiful angel who then felt it necessary to have God’s power.He was then cast out of heaven and termed “fallen angel”. Even though I have cited this story as an example,I feel it is not meant to be taken literally.its meant to evoke a deeper understanding of good and evil in us humans just like the Adam and eve story.What if they weren’t the first and we really were evolved from monkeys or whatever.who would have understood the concept of evolution in the time of moses,joshua n all whatnot.
All in all,like many stories in the bible,this one posted by fr. bob has many flaws.Nevertheless,like many stories in the bible,it is not meant to be examined n measured with a scientific mind,but its purpose is to help fear our Lord and look upon him with awe,God gave us our intelligence and for the fact we seem to be soooooo smart,imagine how much more intelligent He is.he knows what He’s doing by making us question and infer.He is building anticipation for the answers.So prepare for the answers every advent.One day they’ll come and we’ll all be dumbfounded and speechless.
my name is isabella agbaje,i live in nigeria and i am 16 years old.I have no idea why i’m writing this or how it came to mind. so…..yh….bye.
December 26th, 2009 at 10:26 am
some inserts i forgot to put
1: so God dint create the devil, He created Lucifer who chose to become the devil
2:the fact that the people of old won’t have understood evolution is probably why the bible was created so simple.
3: and all the people who think they are and who are thought of to be smart….hahaha….they’ll all be made idiots on that day.
December 30th, 2009 at 9:02 am
Stumbled across this site as I was wandering virtual space, and decided to add something I have always felt odd.
First, I am a christian. Wasnt really raised as one, but when the lord starts to speak to you…….well….there is no choice but to follow where he leads.
I was a bit suprised when I first saw the Einstien story. LOL mathmatics is a passion of mine from way back, and I had never heard of the book mentioned.
Ok….my point.
I have, on more than one occasion been accused of following my belief with “blind faith”. I have no problem with that. I have spent many years studying Gods word, and I am at my best when I let his will, not my own, guide my feet, and my life.
The issue I have, is that my blind faith in my creator, is seen differently than the blind faith others put in science.
Hmmmm….science. Yeah…..the folks who told us Lucy was the missing link because of the patella……which, we discovered many years later, to have been a considerable distance from the body itself.
Hmmmm….science. We have the technology to build a body, but what would be the use. Science cant give it life.
I have witnessed the power of God in my life, up close. I have personal experiences where science failed, while the power of prayer, and blind faith cured a “fatal” disease, and healed a birth defect in a newborn. My blind faith has taken me from a life of addiction, self-destruction, and fear, into a life filled with peace, abundance, and joy beyond measure.
You know the difference between a Scientist and God? God never claimed to be a Scientist.
Just my two bits
December 31st, 2009 at 12:01 am
There is no “E” in Pi.
January 4th, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits.
January 4th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
I agree with JSG.
I believe there is much evidence to what others have said about religions like Christianity:
Religion misrepresents the origins of humankind and the cosmos;
Religion demands unreasonable suppression of human nature;
Religion inclines people to violence and blind submission to authority; and
Religion expresses hostility to free inquiry.
January 5th, 2010 at 1:53 am
Religion can be guilty of all the sins of mankind, and often is, because religion is human-based. Religion seeks to do good and strive toward God, but ultimately fails. That’s because religion is human initiated, man trying to build his ivory tower tall enough to reach Heaven. What God says He seeks is relationship, something which He and He alone can initiate, and did initiate by sending His one and only Son to die — on a cross made of wood, at the hands of Roman soldiers, approved by the local religious leaders.
True, life-changing belief in God may be considered and pondered as a result of intellectual interaction like the above story (Einstein or not), but it can only be acquired from God Himself as a gift of His grace. The blood sacrifice of Jesus — freely given, freely received.
“I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!” Mark 9:24 [show]Mark 9:24
[24]Immediately the father of the child cried out(1) and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!" (ESV)
Footnotes
1. [9:24] Some manuscripts add 'with tears'
January 7th, 2010 at 1:25 am
Science has misrepresented the origins of humankind and the cosmos over, and over. Odd that you hold more faith in something repeatedly found lacking.
Unreasonable suppression of human nature? Whos nature are you speaking of? Not mine. How dare you think to include me in that. I am a willing and thankful christian. I am not supressed….I am free.
The few you read about in history, or in the papers, in no way represents the hundreds of thousands of christians you dont hear about……or choose to ignore. Try “New HopeUganda” in Google. The Brittons were members of a church I attended in Colorado some years back. Geoff was the associate pastor. God called him to Uganda…..into the middle of the violence you wish to lay at the feet of all religion.
It has been my experience, that the hostility is far more often directed at the religious. If you spend any amount of time on youtube, and read posts attacking christians for thier beliefs, you will find I am right. People with no real desire to listen to the music, but knowing they will find lots of us supressed warmongers, often pop in to spew venom.
I understand the last statement, but I dont think you worded it quite the way you intended. If I am wrong in this, then sorry. I listen to opinions. Any debate is good for the mind. However…….there is nothing anyone could say that will cause my faith in the lord to waver. I see Gods hand in everything around me. “But for the grace of God go I.” Those word say it all. Do you have any idea what it feels like to be feared? Feared by EVERYONE around you? I had no compassion, or concern for anyone. First thing most folks would think was “biker”. BIG biker. Funny the billboards the lord somethimes uses. A waitress in a greasy spoon. She told me wouldnt date an animal who had forgotten how to be man. That was all she said. It took almost a year, but I couldnt get her words out of my head. I was paying for fuel, and the radio was playing a sermon. All I remember hearing was “He doesnt care what you’ve done. He only cares about what you are going to do next.”
Do you know what it feels like to be respected by EVERYONE around you? Believe what you like, but there is a God. He sent his son to die a horrible death, and by his blood I was saved almost 2,000 years before I was born. I have seen proof in EVERY part of my life. He doesnt hate the sinner….only the sin.
Move in me lord….I am yours
January 8th, 2010 at 9:41 am
You can not reach into your pocket and pull out the entity nothing. Nothing is the absence of something. Since their is no such thing as nothing, then existence always existed in one form or another. Since existence always existed, than god could not have created existence out of nothing, since their is no nothing.Their is no god.There is only us.
January 8th, 2010 at 5:24 pm
You are attempting to use logic to explain God. Cant be done.
Now….let me see the PROOF that “existence always existed”. You made the statement.. lets see the proof.
I can use the exact same method to show you are wrong. All you can do is show THEORY… not fact….theory proves absolutely nothing. With logic, I can show that there is no shuch thing as mankind. Science is not exact. Quantum physics, and chaos theory show that in a very clear manner.
Logic cant explain love. Logic cant explain trust. Again, all logic can do is rest on theory.
I have proof in my life that God not only exists, but that his promise is real. He has demonstrated his existance to me enough times that I can say he is real……from a scientific prospective. How many times does an experiment need to be run before science calls something fact?
January 11th, 2010 at 5:02 am
Renoir’s Color Mixing: “He always mixed his colors on the canvas. He was very careful to keep an impression of transparency in his picture throughout the different phases of the work … he worked on the whole surface of his canvas [and] the motif gradually emerged from the seeming confusion, with each brushstroke.” — Jean Renoir
January 15th, 2010 at 5:44 am
“For those who believe, no explanation is needed. For those who do not, no explanation is possible.”
January 21st, 2010 at 9:15 pm
for all the people who leave negative comments about how this is a bunch of nothing why cant you just keep your comments to yourself if you dont believe in god why did you read it why do you care and why cant you just ignore it then? hmm because you cannot except another believe and there happiness through it? you all believe in something whether you like it or not you believe the chair you sit on will not break and in turn you also believe that there is no God nothing to believe in after you die when you die its just nothing. that sonds very fulfilling. I am a christian and i do believe in God and im happy even if i die and theres nothing there i will be satisfied because i wont be able to think of anything further. wouldnt you be happier if you believed in something. isn’t believeing easier than disbelieving because if you dont belive the believers will always be there to oppose you but when you believe no one can change your mind or may i say you’ve never really believed. i hope you all have a change of heart or maybe just ignore me to show how amazing you are and you great self control
January 24th, 2010 at 7:39 am
Hi. Very nice Blog. Not really what i have searched over Google, but thanks for the information.
January 24th, 2010 at 11:35 am
Here are a few links that I am sure will have evolutionists scrambling for what appears to be rapidly diminishing “facts”.
It appears that DNA is pulling the carpet on evolution.
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn58/tinycode.htm
http://www.gotquestions.org/human-chimp-DNA.html
January 24th, 2010 at 11:36 am
This link I found of great interest, as it is looking at the ‘Mitochodrial Eve’.
Again, DNA may show that we came from a strain dating roughly 6,000 years ago. The article suggests the reason for this “bottle neck” in the chain of DNA may have been caused by a disaster, which a flood would have provided………yeah……but read it anyway.
http://www.s8int.com/article1-simple.html
January 24th, 2010 at 11:37 am
This information was a bit of a suprise to me. I knew how inacurate carbon dating was, but it has been awhile since I looked at it.
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/carbondating.html
January 24th, 2010 at 11:38 am
This one was just fun to read. It touches on a wide range of things.
http://www.religionscience.com/
Something else I was reading….sorry, no links, lol find your own…. was in the area of dark matter/energy. The big bang theory appears to have taken one in the beam, and is sinking fast. The expansion of the galaxy is accelerating. It is causing quite a twist for Einsteins theory of gravity. While in principal it still works…..here….on earth….it is unable to explain the acceleration.
Reading in this area is going to be rather heavy, and most sites are designed with the expectation that visitors will already be well versed in astro physics, but it is still something to think about.
January 28th, 2010 at 10:59 am
Dear Father I have to laugh ,cant stop laughing,at all these people coming on to your site giving out about this script,athiests coming on to christian sites (isnt it great hey) all lost sheep searching for answers searching for god and go out of their way to try to get us to respond with a suitable answer that god is real.This is great cant count al the comments you rececieved from non believers,which means there all looking for god.I dont have to give any reason that god exists ,he just does.Well done father for getting all these lost sheep on a christian site lol.
February 1st, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Father, God uses us in ways we can never imagine. I too received the email and loved it… But like many others I thought, “Wait a minute… there’s no way Einstein was a part of that…” I googled and happened upon your site. I marveled at all the folks who completely missed the point to the story. Those who were hung up on one sentence at the very end. And I thought to myself, “Am I like these people who’ve posted?” “Am I so caught up on such small things that I can’t focus on the big picture? Do I miss God’s miracles because like many of these folks I’m too analytical?” From what I’ve seen here, I think I should relax some… quit trying to justify what I already know to be true. I need to stop trying to prove what I already know in my heart… quit searching for God when in truth I’ve already found Him… I accepted Him years ago. Yes, I’m a believer.
February 6th, 2010 at 6:09 pm
I read what you all wrote. I thank you. Whether you realize it or not you took the time to address an idea that you were compelled to brand with the fire of your passion either for or against an idea that triggered a response. You personally took time out of your life to share a piece of yourself with all who not only have written here but read what you have written here with them! I am impressed. The addittion of all the ideas expressed here represents a whole. The greatest achievement of man is when ideas are not suppressed but incouraged. I always loved the ancient addage of ” A wise man asks what a fool pretends to know”! The wisest leaders listen and hear. I could and will use a scripture to exemplify this concept. ” Faith cometh by hearing and hearing cometh by every word from the mouth of God”. Hope, belief, faith and love are words. They also have substance. As light has substance and darkness is only the absense of light. You can’t turn on darkness and make light go away! Can you? There is a sense of humor here. Maybe a paradox is a better view. As far as I know the idea that anyone has an inkling about what God has in mind for you isn’t common knowledge. Oh, the stories I could share with you. I will not leave you without food for thought. You all that are curious and want a personal relationship with Jesus, the Christ. Read the Gospel of John again. Then every now and then say until you mean it, I believe in Him who He sent. Then later, in the afternoon say, He is a rewarder of those who dilligently seek Him. I can just see the minds of some of the people who expressed their faith or lack of so completely gearing up to attack with all their logic and venom to squash this bug on this rug! The sorry part of all that meaningless bull banter is when Christ was asked a question and responded by saying that he came not to judge but to save for by their unbelief they are condemned already! Now that is a sad thing for the free will people. You see unbelief is belief with volition/drive. The arrogance of it even drove the jewish philosopher Gallaliel against a wall. It makes no sense to not take the chance and try to believe when the offer is Spiritual Everlasting Life in a new creation by a God you are trying to believe in anyway! Look at your option. If I believe that the Old Testement Covenants were God’s plan to take His creation into a new Divine Family with a perfect sacrifice being the last blood sacrifice why would I say, ” UMMMM thats to far out”! Isn’t it easier to say, “Thank you, God and accept the gift which is God’s plan not yours! Freely given for those who can bare it. I swear to anyone that is listening this is not brand new! I do understand why people are hesitating! Here is the paradox, the big curve ball! We as a people, like the Jews of the Exodus, feel we are unworthy, unclean, unholy, not good enough for God! Or just plain afraid. We just feel we have to do something to purify, sanctify, glorify ourselves so that we are worthy? Is that it? You’ve really got to spend more time in your Bible, not because you have to but because you want to. It’s so exciting when you experience a ” Quickining” and it doesn’t stop! I could tell you about this forever but I will finish on this note. It was a blast finding this site and now think about this, He is the author and the finisher! God bless you people-outa here! Dusty
February 18th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
Pretty interesting comments. You brought up some points that I had not previously considered. I will subscribe to see if you write any updates.
February 21st, 2010 at 5:52 pm
So, so many problems here. I read half of the comments, but chose not to read the remainder because so many I had already read were disturbing in their religious irrational argumentation, even those between the Christians themselves (Pi is not the only transcendental number, for instance).
I recommend Heather (#27) and JSG (#22) as two simple statements written on behalf of reason, but even these may be addressing the religious problem rather than the problem of the article itself.
FIRST –
as stated many times, there is no such book written by Einstein. I need say no more.
SECOND –
the story is of the highest probability apocryphal as it purports to quote, verbatim, a dialogue that occurred in a pre-technological classroom when Einstein was a kid, before anyone knew there was anything special about this kid. But even if we say it was just an ordinary kid, why would this dialogue be of any memorable significance? Who took the dictation? Why would they do such a thing? If the entire dialogue was written from memory, who memorized it? And what motivation would they have for remembering an entire dialogue such as this? The story is obviously fabricated, the dialogue is invented.
Some of you might say, that doesn’t matter, it’s the TRUTH of the argument that matters (just like it doesn’t matter whether or not the Bible was dictated by God, it’s the truth of the content of those writings that matters. But even the content of the Bible doesn’t hold up under scrutiny — it does state that Pi = 3, for instance — which is something many of you will probably not permit yourself to consider.)
THIRD–
the argumentation is not even correct. That is, using the same given examples, the arguments can be reframed such that opposite conclusions are derived.
The logic is flawed: One claim is that cold doesn’t exist, only heat exists. Consider what takes place in the brain of someone who touches a hot or a cold object. The heat or the cold, respectively, is represented in the brain as a sensation — very real regions of the brain become active. The sensation exists in the brain in BOTH cases in different ways. From this perspective, both heat and cold EXIST as sensory perceptions in the brain, contradicting the conclusion drawn in the story that cold does not exist.
Additionally, one could think of heat as being a transfer of energy from a test object to a test apparatus. The transfer of energy increases the energy state of the test apparatus which, by definition, is called heat. But, if energy is transferred in the other direction, from the test apparatus to the test object, the energy state of the test apparatus decreases which, by definition, is called cold. In this example, then, it could be said that NEITHER heat nor cold exist, per se, because neither can be said to exist UNTIL a transfer of energy takes place in one or another direction. In the absence of that transfer, there is neither heat nor cold, merely the existent energy state of a resting test body and an existent energy state of a test apparatus.
If that isn’t clear:
Heat is energy transferred from one body to another.
Cold is energy transferred from one body to another.
They are the same thing, only the direction of transfer has changed.
All of the other arguments are similar to this one. They can all be reframed such that the ONLY conclusion the author wants you to see is contradicted.
Our understanding of the world is dependent upon our use of words, but visualizing what’s going on in a particular situation might help you see beyond the limitations of mere words. It’s possible to deceive one’s self with simple word logic such as is presented here.
In my experience, religious people are trained in how to “be obedient, even without the benefit of understanding.” I suggest that you violate your obedience orders and begin trying to understand. Learn to think and there’s no limit to what kinds of problems you will be able to resolve,
March 10th, 2010 at 6:39 pm
Well, if all that the ‘guilty’ email has done is to get people around the world talk about God, it WAS worth it.
March 14th, 2010 at 11:21 am
This is the coolest site, continue to keep so!
March 15th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
I’d like to see less “we’re right, you’re wrong” from both sides. The heart of this argument is rooted both in a lack of tolerance for one another, and from differing opinions about the nature of faith. I have a few simple ideas on religion- Every religion is valid to the extent that an individual believes in the precepts of that religion. One understanding of spirituality should not be held in higher or lower regard than another understanding. People of faith are not less than because they yearn for meaning. People of no faith are not less than because they do not yearn for the same meaning. If you have embraced a belief system, then that system is real, for you. What matters most to our race are the universal values, kindness, love, compassion, and yes, tolerance.
When our nation was founded, we separated our public from our private lives to allow us the freedom to interact successfully with one another outside the sphere of religion. The freedom to believe, or not believe is a primary right we share.
Thanks for letting me express my thoughts on this issue. Mike.
March 16th, 2010 at 12:10 pm
I did not read through all the replies but I think the book in question is Ideas And Opinions. There is a chapters “The Religious Spirit of Science”, “Science and (not vs) Religion” “Religion and Science; Irreconcilable?” I assume that is what they are talking about.
March 27th, 2010 at 2:02 am
Fr. Bob,
It’s a wonderful story without the lies at the end. It is “popular” because nobody REALLY believes Albert Einstein wrote anything of the sort, and they all want to see it for themselves.
March 29th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
I have spent the better part of an hour reading through all these responses, some angry, some rational, some not so rational. Most of these reactions are completely missing the (or actually proving Fr. Bob’s) original point of the posting. Which boils down to words mean things. And we all must be mindful of what each of us says through our daily lives regardless of individual faiths.
Both science and religion deal in faith. And both actually mirror one another. This comment always sends athiests into a fit. I really never mean for that reaction, but like anything, when one tries to have a discussion on another’s faith it can become quite heated. However, to qualify my statement of science and faith, science tries to apply what is “law” to what is theory to find more law. The three step scientific process (hypothisis/theory/law) are the basis for finding new laws in the universe. Everyone understands this. But when the theory becomes stuck lacking other laws or factual basis, certain people continue the theory out of faith.
The theory of evolution is the main example continually brought up during these discussions. Unfortunately, the scientific community has yet to find the “missing link” in the fossil records. I have heard lectures on this theory, read Darwin’s book (Origins of Species), and who knows how many documentaries. I have watched as brilliant scientists the world over have infatically yelled that this theory is “FACT!” But everyone, on each side of this argument, should take note; these scientists never yell “LAW” (because it cannot be proven into law), and regardless of which species from the fossil record is referenced it always remains that species. For example: an earlier comment in this post had referred to dogs from one breed to another. And this would (as he pointed out) proved the existance of evolution. But the glaring fact (as scientists say) is that the dog remains a dog, and doesn’t become another species. One should not discount evolution entirely, for as the comment points out, evolution exists to a degree. Through environment is the prime example of this. There was a Nobel Prize for Science even handed out for research of this evolution some years back reference the Galopagos Finch. The finch actually changed beak size to obtain water over a short period of time. When water became more available, the beak returned back to original size. But the significant conclusion of the paper written wasn’t what was said, but rather not said. The finch….remained a finch.
There are many religious faiths out there, and I know I am about to get the wrath of the religious people for the following statement. The same as I get with my previous faith and science discussion from athiests. The vast majority of ORGANIZED (I purposely emphasized that) religions out there are based on tradition followed by the bible to back them up. A lot of these put “the church” over the bible, considering them one in the same. But you have to ask yourself this plaguing question: If you were to destroy all of the physical structures and church doctrines from a certain religion, would it remain the same? Can going to an empty field in the middle of nowhere be the same as going to a temple structure? It should…we adopt certain places as “Holy” through our natural want and desires to be close to places of significance. In Christianity for example, people cling to these structures or places for dear life. However, Jesus expressly tought that the people are the church. It does not matter where they are. If they follow the Bible, and follow the truths of Jesus, place is irrelivant. Furthermore, in certain Christian faiths, I have personally witnessed un-Christian acts in the name of their own religion. They purposely exclude helping others others in need unless they join “their” church. This goes against everything the Bible teaches, Old and New. Which leads me into the second point most frequently brought up during these discussions: Good and Evil. I enjoyed reading these I think the most. Because it is the battle of good and evil everyday. Evolution and creationism, when it comes right down to it, are meaningless. We are all here now, and what we do now is the most important. What everyone needs to take from the good and evil battle is simple. God instilled the right of man to maintain freewill. We all possess this. It is what drives people through decisions everyday, both major and minor. Both good and evil. While God could stop any evil in the world at a moments notice, and He has from time to time (the flood, the plagues, directing armies, etc), He allows man to choose his own path through freewill. A person must choose sides.
I have to go now, but I felt compelled to weigh in. Not sure why, but sometimes I feel I just need to vent a bit. God Bless you all in all you do. Take care.
March 31st, 2010 at 3:23 pm
Actually, God does not care that much about good vs. evil. What He cares about is whether or not we have life - not the human life, but the divine life. This can be seen at the beginning of the Bible where there are 2 trees. They are NOT the tree of good and the tree of evil. Rather, they are (1) the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and (2) the tree of life. Notice both knowledge, good, and evil are of the same tree and partaking of this tree issues in death. God wants man to partake instead of the tree of life, which represents God Himself as the divine, eternal, uncreated, indestructible life. Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life…” (John 11:25 [show]John 11:25
) and “I am the vine…” (John 15 [show]John 15
) and “I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly…” (John 10:10 [show]John 10:10
). Let’s not be distracted by good vs. evil or right vs. wrong but rather focus on having and enjoying Christ as our life. At the end of the Bible, only one of the two trees remained. Do you know which one?
[25]Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life.(1) Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, (ESV)
Footnotes
1. [11:25] Some manuscripts omit 'and the life'
I Am the True Vine
[15:1]"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. [2]Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. [3]Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. [4]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. [5]I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. [6]If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. [7]If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. [8]By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. [9]As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. [10]If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. [11]These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
[12]"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. [13]Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. [14]You are my friends if you do what I command you. [15]No longer do I call you servants,(1) for the servant(2) does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. [16]You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. [17]These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
The Hatred of the World
[18]"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. [19]If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. [20]Remember the word that I said to you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. [21]But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me. [22]If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have been guilty of sin,(3) but now they have no excuse for their sin. [23]Whoever hates me hates my Father also. [24]If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. [25]But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: 'They hated me without a cause.'
[26]"But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. [27]And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning. (ESV)
Footnotes
1. [15:15] Greek 'bondservants'
2. [15:15] Greek 'bondservant'; also verse 20
3. [15:22] Greek 'they would not have sin'; also verse 24
[10]The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. (ESV)
April 15th, 2010 at 3:02 pm
Albert Einstein was one of the most brilliant thinkers ever to live on this Earth.
Jesus Christ was (is) the only Son of God ever to live on this Earth.
Draw your own conclusions as to their veracity, according to your own lights.
April 18th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
I arrived at this web page through a variation of the debate (by Einstein) sent to me via email. It seems we are ever to debate the veracity of God and who He is. I am a fundamentalist Christian (for those who have a bad taste in their mouth when they hear the word ‘fundamental’ I’ll explain), which means Solo Scriptura. Only Scripture. No Quran, no Latter Day Saints, no Pope, no ‘other’ texts or translations of anything - just Scripture. God is certainly capable of preserving His Word throughout all time!
The debate between science and faith is really absurd. My ‘faith’ is built on the science of the revelation of ’scripture’. Try to understand that all scripture has been thoroughly ‘tested’ over longer periods than anything else in history by persons more intelligent than all of us. There is nothing new under the sun. The proof of this 66 book of science is being revealed almost daily by people abhorrant to supernatural beings, yet on they go proving more and more of what they don’t believe in looking for answers that match their own beliefs, not God’s answers. A crowd of Einsteins could not have written a tome of science which doesn’t contradict itself for more than 5000 years and has so much detail that lectures every day for several lifetimes couldn’t reveal everything available amongst Its pages.
Time. God says He existed before there was time, and that He made time by creation. Quite logical to me. Anything with no beginning and no end doesn’t exist in time, but outside of it. Since none of us can claim to have been ‘there’, guess we aren’t God. In fact, the one fact I can be sure of is that I am alive and will die. Unless you believe we are not really awake but just dreaming, there is so much data on birth, life, and death that to not call this fact on life a fact is to be illogical and therefore unscientific. My Creator MUST be everlasting from before the beginning or He cannot be God - what happened before He was created? Logic says this is blasphemy even before the Bible does. God is.
The arguments proposed in the dialog of the email are really good if not taken out of context but reviewed through scripture. The idea that science can prove the existance of God is only half possible. Science by its very ‘nature’ explains the evidence of ‘creation’. Before there was anything, there was only the Creator, and He wrote the book of rules we call physics. We are still discovering Creation even as we speculate the existance of dark energy and dark matter, and an accelerating universe. Should we be so arrogant as to deny the obvious beginning of Creation without speculating the existance of One outside of the creation? And if we agree to investigate the part of creation we can never explain through ‘evidence’ we can rely on by the application of physics, then can we really ignore the revelations obtained over millenia about who He is? Einstein would call this a semicircular argument, perhaps, but 1 plus 1 is always 2 and the evidence of 66 books is undeniable to anyone wishing to explore the truth of existance. Solo Scriptura. Pax.
April 27th, 2010 at 11:19 pm
@ Rudy from your post, #12
“The bible was not meant to be a measuring device. But a guide to peace and Harmony”.
The Bible is meant to show the glory of God, and to show his people, ALL people, what you MUST do to enter into Heaven.
That is all…
April 27th, 2010 at 11:21 pm
Oh, and further more I love how soooooo many people have replied to this amazing story, though it may not actually have been by Einstein.
John 3:16 [show]John 3:16
For God So Loved the World
[16]"For God so loved the world,(1) that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)
Footnotes
1. [3:16] Or 'For this is how God loved the world'
May 1st, 2010 at 7:56 pm
I read an article about Enstein proving to one of his teacher’s that GOD IS GOD— do you know where I can find this article. I recall he said Enstein was in school.
THANKS
May 28th, 2010 at 12:22 am
I think it’s very interesting how so many are caught up in the last line and miss the big picture, it’s sad!! Thank you for posting it! I’m very glad it got some people thinking!!!!!!!
June 5th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
I love this conversation. How sad that when I printed this out and gave it to an atheist, his response was, ” enstein didnt write that.” How sad. how sad that anyone who ever hears truth always seams to somehow totally miss to point altogether. You can show them fact after fact after fact after fact and they AALLWWAAYYSS miss the point. The bible says that the god of this world( satan ) has blinded their eyes so they would not see. Anyone who is reading this must ask yourself one question. Ask yourself if your opinion really matters? Who cares what you dont believe. If 1 plus 1 equals 2, then your opinion doesnt matter. Truth is truth regardless if you believe it or not. Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN if you believe it or not. You think your hurting anyone if you dont believe? NO.Stop running from God and stop justifying your sinful life.Repent and trust in Christ. There is much joy in denying yourself
June 5th, 2010 at 5:54 pm
Oh and ps, My opinion doesnt matter either. But that wont change the fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sin of mankind. That is the truth regardless if I believe it or not. You think youre a good person? Ever compared yourself to the 10 commandments? We will not be judged by our standards but by Gods standard. If you go through each commandment and compare yourself to it then all of a sudden you are not good. See your sin yet? IF not then thats called pride and the bible calls you self righteous. If so, Then repent and trust in Jesus alone. The wages of sin is death. But God stepped in 2000 years ago and paid your fine and my fine upon that cross. If you dont allow Christ to pay your sin, Then you can pay it yourself in a horrible place called hell for all eternity. Oh, and Jesus spoke of hell more than any other subject, so take this one up with him…. not me.I speak truth in a world of lies. Not a popular message but i can lie to you and flatter you with empty words and Just tell you God loves you this and God loves you that, but if a dr fails to tell his patient he has a deadly illness, because he dont want to offend someone, then thats not love. True love sometimes offends. Man has a deadly illness called sin and the only thing that can cure it is to remove it. Jesus is The Answer
July 19th, 2010 at 8:58 pm
Fr Bob, thank you for the post. I love a good argument when people are so sure of their opinion being correct. As a believer, I feel it is my duty to help explain the life of Jesus to people and help them understand, to the best of my ability, what he is about and help them become believers. At the same time, if they are not believers and want to argue why I am wasting my time, I have a simple answer: “If I’m wrong, all I have done is waste some of my time and hurt no one. But if YOU’RE wrong, where will you spend eternity? Is it really worth not giving Jesus a chance?”
July 22nd, 2010 at 4:17 am
Despite who wrote the post God vs. science it make a good point. Science is a western creation that has its roots in Christianity. Without a concept of one God there would be no concept of linear time in which the field of science resides. Despite what some think science has its roots in monotheism. Until the term Scientist was coined by William Whewell in 1836 all who practiced in the field were reffered to as natural philosophers and this includes Darwin. Christianity was central to natural philosophy..with the sweeping of a pen the title natural philosopher was changed by the merging of ther terms science and artist to create the title scientist. It was in 1836 with the changing of a term that God was taken out of the framework of science. All one need to do is read Francis Bacon. Ironically, Darwin was a natural philosopher. Atheists that use him to promote their cause OBFUSCATE … to the natural philosopher everything was a result of God. Darwin addressed the Cambrian Explosion in terms of a creationist..proof is hanging on a wall at the American Museum of Natural History…HINT!
July 22nd, 2010 at 4:28 am
Framework=depth + facets + resolution….science is all about FRAMEWORK not just humanistic framework but universal …GET THE PICTURE?
July 22nd, 2010 at 4:38 am
GOD created the kaleidoscope in which physical and biological reality resides as people of science just connect the dots from within and create humanistic transient frameworks to understand reality. Ones faith in God creates the ultimate framework for the kaleidoscope. As God peers into the kaleidoscope he is the alpha and omega as time is a humanistic creation of inference from within its facets.